Skyfall (spoilers within)

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Skyfall (spoilers within)

#1 Post by F.N.G. » 04 Nov 2012, 03:43

So, saw it yesterday and I'm a bit underwhelmed. To be honest that's because it's been massively built up by the media over here and declared "the best Bond film ever", which it is far from. I'd give it :3.5stars: - a decent Bond film, with some very tense scenes, but too many plot holes and a poor ending.

The Good:
- The opening chase is very strong (although also very Bourne)
- The William Tell scene was very tense and well acted
- Judi Dench having more screen time
- Bardem is convincing as a mad man

The Bad:
- The ending feels like it's switched genres altogether - very un-Bond
- Silver's plan is bollocks. So he steals the NOC list (MI:1) to get revenge on the boss who betrayed him (many spy thrillers). The list suddenly becomes of no importance about half way through the film and is never mentioned again. It's just a tool to get M in the right place at the right time to kill her. And then he bottles it. And then he as the chance to kill her again, and bottles it. He isn't really trying is he?
- M's character goes from being a strong female character to somebody who needs to be continually rescued by men. I really feel she should have been the one to stab Silver - he could have the gun on her, reel away, and she's had the knife all along - she's already said she's not good with guns, but how about a knife? Add this to Eve (Moneypenny)'s character who is a good field agent (but no Bond), is continually belittled by Bond and by the end is happy being a secretary, and another female character who is casually shot as a joke - the entire film smacks of misogyny. Oh, and the politician trying to bring Mi6 down? A mis-informed woman of course.
- Bardem is far less convincing as a computer genius or former MI6 agent.

The Ugly:
- Bardem's Gollum moment. Good, but very much like Harvey Dent.

I know this probably comes across as sounding like I didn't like it, I actually did, but it's not what I hoped/expected. Much better than QoS, but not as good as Casino Royale.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#2 Post by Batman » 04 Nov 2012, 11:22

F.N.G. wrote:So, saw it yesterday and I'm a bit underwhelmed. To be honest that's because it's been massively built up by the media over here and declared "the best Bond film ever", which it is far from. I'd give it :3.5stars: - a decent Bond film, with some very tense scenes, but too many plot holes and a poor ending.

The Good:
- The opening chase is very strong (although also very Bourne)
- The William Tell scene was very tense and well acted
- Judi Dench having more screen time
- Bardem is convincing as a mad man

The Bad:
- The ending feels like it's switched genres altogether - very un-Bond
- Silver's plan is bollocks. So he steals the NOC list (MI:1) to get revenge on the boss who betrayed him (many spy thrillers). The list suddenly becomes of no importance about half way through the film and is never mentioned again. It's just a tool to get M in the right place at the right time to kill her. And then he bottles it. And then he as the chance to kill her again, and bottles it. He isn't really trying is he?
- M's character goes from being a strong female character to somebody who needs to be continually rescued by men. I really feel she should have been the one to stab Silver - he could have the gun on her, reel away, and she's had the knife all along - she's already said she's not good with guns, but how about a knife? Add this to Eve (Moneypenny)'s character who is a good field agent (but no Bond), is continually belittled by Bond and by the end is happy being a secretary, and another female character who is casually shot as a joke - the entire film smacks of misogyny. Oh, and the politician trying to bring Mi6 down? A mis-informed woman of course.
- Bardem is far less convincing as a computer genius or former MI6 agent.

The Ugly:
- Bardem's Gollum moment. Good, but very much like Harvey Dent.

I know this probably comes across as sounding like I didn't like it, I actually did, but it's not what I hoped/expected. Much better than QoS, but not as good as Casino Royale.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#3 Post by JJ » 07 Nov 2012, 17:13

Haven't seen the movie, but am I the only one who thinks that the title song (by Adele) is a piece of shit? I was bored beyond tears the first time I heard it.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#4 Post by F.N.G. » 07 Nov 2012, 23:06

JJ wrote:Haven't seen the movie, but am I the only one who thinks that the title song (by Adele) is a piece of shit? I was bored beyond tears the first time I heard it.
I quite like it, but it is totally Bond theme by numbers. Nothing fresh whatsoever.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#5 Post by Batman » 08 Nov 2012, 01:57

F.N.G. wrote:
JJ wrote:Haven't seen the movie, but am I the only one who thinks that the title song (by Adele) is a piece of shit? I was bored beyond tears the first time I heard it.
I quite like it, but it is totally Bond theme by numbers. Nothing fresh whatsoever.
I agree that it's Bond by the numbers. That's why I think it's meh. While I like the traditional Bond songs, I appreciate the ones that take a slightly different look: "Live and Let Die", "You Know My Name" from Casino Royale, and "Another Way to Die" from Quantum of Solace were all much more interesting IMHO.

Maybe we should have a thread on this.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#6 Post by F.N.G. » 08 Nov 2012, 08:23

Batman wrote:
F.N.G. wrote:
JJ wrote:Haven't seen the movie, but am I the only one who thinks that the title song (by Adele) is a piece of shit? I was bored beyond tears the first time I heard it.
I quite like it, but it is totally Bond theme by numbers. Nothing fresh whatsoever.
I agree that it's Bond by the numbers. That's why I think it's meh. While I like the traditional Bond songs, I appreciate the ones that take a slightly different look: "Live and Let Die", "You Know My Name" from Casino Royale, and "Another Way to Die" from Quantum of Solace were all much more interesting IMHO.

Maybe we should have a thread on this.
I think I did my list of Bond songs in order, along with quality of songs v quality of films discrepancies a few years ago. IIRC for me Diamonds are Forever had the biggest gap between good song, crap film, (whereas Die Another Day was both a crap song and a crap film, for instance).

I agree, I like You Know my Name and Another Way to Die. My favourites are probably We have all the Time in the World (although not really a Bond theme) and Thunderball. I also highly recommend David Arnold's re-imagining album Shaken & Stirred. I actually prefer the Martin Fry version of Thunderball).
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#7 Post by Batman » 08 Nov 2012, 09:17

F.N.G. wrote:
Batman wrote:
F.N.G. wrote:
JJ wrote:Haven't seen the movie, but am I the only one who thinks that the title song (by Adele) is a piece of shit? I was bored beyond tears the first time I heard it.
I quite like it, but it is totally Bond theme by numbers. Nothing fresh whatsoever.
I agree that it's Bond by the numbers. That's why I think it's meh. While I like the traditional Bond songs, I appreciate the ones that take a slightly different look: "Live and Let Die", "You Know My Name" from Casino Royale, and "Another Way to Die" from Quantum of Solace were all much more interesting IMHO.

Maybe we should have a thread on this.
I think I did my list of Bond songs in order, along with quality of songs v quality of films discrepancies a few years ago. IIRC for me Diamonds are Forever had the biggest gap between good song, crap film, (whereas Die Another Day was both a crap song and a crap film, for instance).

I agree, I like You Know my Name and Another Way to Die. My favourites are probably We have all the Time in the World (although not really a Bond theme) and Thunderball. I also highly recommend David Arnold's re-imagining album Shaken & Stirred. I actually prefer the Martin Fry version of Thunderball).
I was being facetious about the list. We had the discussion on the Top 5 thread. It's here.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#8 Post by F.N.G. » 08 Nov 2012, 10:36

Batman wrote:
F.N.G. wrote:
Batman wrote:
F.N.G. wrote:
JJ wrote:Haven't seen the movie, but am I the only one who thinks that the title song (by Adele) is a piece of shit? I was bored beyond tears the first time I heard it.
I quite like it, but it is totally Bond theme by numbers. Nothing fresh whatsoever.
I agree that it's Bond by the numbers. That's why I think it's meh. While I like the traditional Bond songs, I appreciate the ones that take a slightly different look: "Live and Let Die", "You Know My Name" from Casino Royale, and "Another Way to Die" from Quantum of Solace were all much more interesting IMHO.

Maybe we should have a thread on this.
I think I did my list of Bond songs in order, along with quality of songs v quality of films discrepancies a few years ago. IIRC for me Diamonds are Forever had the biggest gap between good song, crap film, (whereas Die Another Day was both a crap song and a crap film, for instance).

I agree, I like You Know my Name and Another Way to Die. My favourites are probably We have all the Time in the World (although not really a Bond theme) and Thunderball. I also highly recommend David Arnold's re-imagining album Shaken & Stirred. I actually prefer the Martin Fry version of Thunderball).
I was being facetious about the list. We had the discussion on the Top 5 thread. It's here.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#9 Post by Gren » 09 Nov 2012, 16:04

I agree. Action scenes good. Plot suspicious by its absence/stupidity. And how can you have a parliamentary select committee without Keith Vaz? It just completely took me out of the moment.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#10 Post by alan smithee » 11 Nov 2012, 11:47

from the screenwriters of Star Trek: Nemesis & Die Another Day ...

:2.5stars:
Batman wrote:
F.N.G. wrote:So, saw it yesterday and I'm a bit underwhelmed. To be honest that's because it's been massively built up by the media over here and declared "the best Bond film ever", which it is far from. I'd give it :3.5stars: - a decent Bond film, with some very tense scenes, but too many plot holes and a poor ending.

The Good:
- The opening chase is very strong (although also very Bourne)
- The William Tell scene was very tense and well acted
- Judi Dench having more screen time
- Bardem is convincing as a mad man

The Bad:
- The ending feels like it's switched genres altogether - very un-Bond
- Silver's plan is bollocks. So he steals the NOC list (MI:1) to get revenge on the boss who betrayed him (many spy thrillers). The list suddenly becomes of no importance about half way through the film and is never mentioned again. It's just a tool to get M in the right place at the right time to kill her. And then he bottles it. And then he as the chance to kill her again, and bottles it. He isn't really trying is he?
- M's character goes from being a strong female character to somebody who needs to be continually rescued by men. I really feel she should have been the one to stab Silver - he could have the gun on her, reel away, and she's had the knife all along - she's already said she's not good with guns, but how about a knife? Add this to Eve (Moneypenny)'s character who is a good field agent (but no Bond), is continually belittled by Bond and by the end is happy being a secretary, and another female character who is casually shot as a joke - the entire film smacks of misogyny. Oh, and the politician trying to bring Mi6 down? A mis-informed woman of course.
- Bardem is far less convincing as a computer genius or former MI6 agent.

The Ugly:
- Bardem's Gollum moment. Good, but very much like Harvey Dent.

I know this probably comes across as sounding like I didn't like it, I actually did, but it's not what I hoped/expected. Much better than QoS, but not as good as Casino Royale.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#11 Post by JJ » 11 Nov 2012, 22:23

:3.5stars: seems right to me. One thing I didn't like is that the movie basically ruined the notion that "James Bond is just a code name like M/Q/etc. that gets awarded to the current 007". I liked that theory.

Also, I was a bit harsh on Adele's song. It was a perfect time to refill the popcorn without missing any of the movie.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#12 Post by » 12 Nov 2012, 02:26

I think you guys are being too generous. I hated it.

I know I'm going to echo some things that have already been said, but here are my thoughts on the film:

The plot was awful. I couldn't believe it when i realized it the tired old "stolen list of agent identities" plot. I was even more incredulous when the weak plot was discarded mid-way through the movie to make way for a ridiculously overly-elaborate revenge plot.

As connected and capable as Bardem apparently was, it was dumb of him to go to so much trouble to achieve his (perceived) goals. I don't even know what his ultimate goal was? Have a face to face with M before killing her publicly? Show off to MI-6 and prove to them how much smarter he is than them?

I'm sure there had to be an easier way to accomplish his goals than to do all that junk with the list, blow up MI6 so they would move locations, get himself captured, escape, and then assassinate M infront of that committee.

This was the worst example of a Bond girl that I can remember. You have a couple of candidates- 1 seems like a usual Bond girl until she gets her face shot off mid-way through the movie and all #2 does is shoot Bond off a train, shave him and then become his secretary.

I hated that this discredited the "Bond is just a code name held by a series of guys" theory.

Am I remembering correctly that these Craig movies have been fun in that they've been set up as kind of the beginning of Bond? He earns his 007, gets his first kill, and we see the origins of all his iconic relationships. If these are really the origins of Bond then why is he suddenly too old to be in the field? They go to all this trouble to be the origins of Bond and now he needs to retire?

One thing people love and expect from a Bond movie are cool gadgets. Skyfall said "Oh really? You like that? Here's a little radio transmitter and a gun only Bond can shoot, now fuck off"

There were some decent fights and chases, the only thing saving this from being a total disaster.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#13 Post by F.N.G. » 12 Nov 2012, 08:32

A² wrote: I hated that this discredited the "Bond is just a code name held by a series of guys" theory.
That was never the case though. James Bond is, and always has been one person. People can apply theory to it, but as a literary character that's how he's always been.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#14 Post by Middle » 14 Nov 2012, 16:20

A² wrote:I hated that this discredited the "Bond is just a code name held by a series of guys" theory.
As FNG points out, this has never been the intention. But over the years, I would say that the movies have (I'm not per se talking about quality here) surpassed the literary character. And I did like that theory, since we have seen a few Bonds come and go over the past 50 years.
A² wrote:Am I remembering correctly that these Craig movies have been fun in that they've been set up as kind of the beginning of Bond? He earns his 007, gets his first kill, and we see the origins of all his iconic relationships. If these are really the origins of Bond then why is he suddenly too old to be in the field? They go to all this trouble to be the origins of Bond and now he needs to retire?
We get to see Bond as a worn out guy, approaching his fiftees and basically a relic of times past. Most of the movie carried that theme (M being replaced, computer genius Q, etc) and it's true in most ways. Bond is displayed as a vulnerable character, rather than a laughable relic, like Roger Moore was in his later movies (approaching his seventees, yet still punching guys half his age an bedding girls that could be his granddaughter).
I liked the setup of the final scene, since echo's the feel of the original movies quite brilliantly (even including the hat stand). That was pure tribute.
A² wrote:One thing people love and expect from a Bond movie are cool gadgets. Skyfall said "Oh really? You like that? Here's a little radio transmitter and a gun only Bond can shoot, now fuck off"
Please, the last two movies were quite heading into this direction. Hell, we actually get to see Q this time around. And don't forget, they went completely overboard with that concept in the last Brosnan movie, when the only thing Bond was missing was basically a Deus ex Machina pocket.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#15 Post by Toasty » 15 Nov 2012, 08:17

I'll go with :3.5stars: also.

I thought it odd that they debunked the code name theory on one hand (Bond), but added credence to code names being used over generations on the other. (at the very end, suddenly Mallory becomes "M". The new Quartermaster computer geek is not referred to as "Q" until after their quid pro quo, at which moment Bond actually winks when he says it, as if to accept him officially as "Q". In the same token, there is a wink and nod between Bond and the new "Moneypenny" when she introduces herself as such at the end, also). I mean, if ever a secret service agency would want code names, it would be for the field agents, more so than the office clerks... and probably for both, so... yeah I don't like the whole Bond name on the family estate thing.
Middle wrote:
A² wrote:One thing people love and expect from a Bond movie are cool gadgets. Skyfall said "Oh really? You like that? Here's a little radio transmitter and a gun only Bond can shoot, now fuck off"
Please, the last two movies were quite heading into this direction. Hell, we actually get to see Q this time around. And don't forget, they went completely overboard with that concept in the last Brosnan movie, when the only thing Bond was missing was basically a Deus ex Machina pocket.
Both of you raise good points about the gadgetry. I think the producers are making a mistake by over compensating for the mistakes of the last couple Remington Steele gadgets... invisible car, supar solar beam, tsunami wind surfing stuff. Yeah, backing off was a good idea, but not ENTIRELY. They are fun within a certain spectrum.
F.N.G. wrote:The Good:
- The opening chase is very strong (although also very Bourne)
- The William Tell scene was very tense and well acted
- Judi Dench having more screen time
- Bardem is convincing as a mad man
Agreed on all
F.N.G. wrote:- Silver's plan is bollocks. So he steals the NOC list (MI:1) to get revenge on the boss who betrayed him (many spy thrillers). The list suddenly becomes of no importance about half way through the film and is never mentioned again. It's just a tool to get M in the right place at the right time to kill her. And then he bottles it. And then he as the chance to kill her again, and bottles it. He isn't really trying is he?
- M's character goes from being a strong female character to somebody who needs to be continually rescued by men. I really feel she should have been the one to stab Silver - he could have the gun on her, reel away, and she's had the knife all along - she's already said she's not good with guns, but how about a knife? Add this to Eve (Moneypenny)'s character who is a good field agent (but no Bond), is continually belittled by Bond and by the end is happy being a secretary, and another female character who is casually shot as a joke - the entire film smacks of misogyny. Oh, and the politician trying to bring Mi6 down? A mis-informed woman of course.
I think these two points are unfair to the entire series of Bond films.
Bad guys botching their opportunity to kill Bond has been parodied to death for a LONG time.
Bad guys hatching ridiculous plots with over the top tools and means to achieve rather short sighted ends has as well.

And ... of course, to say that THIS Bond film smacks of misogyny, as if all of the others didn't is... um... well... I mean, come on man... I know of course you have watched all of the other Bond films, so... how have you missed it up until Skyfall? This has been the feminist argument against Bond for decades. Why do you think my mother tried to keep my dad from taking me to see them?
To come down on this one for putting women in their places, so to speak, is like coming down on Rambo for killing tpo many vietnamese guards.
F.N.G. wrote:The Ugly:
- Bardem's Gollum moment.
Loved that part.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#16 Post by F.N.G. » 15 Nov 2012, 09:09

Toasty wrote:
F.N.G. wrote:The Good:
- The opening chase is very strong (although also very Bourne)
- The William Tell scene was very tense and well acted
- Judi Dench having more screen time
- Bardem is convincing as a mad man
Agreed on all
F.N.G. wrote:- Silver's plan is bollocks. So he steals the NOC list (MI:1) to get revenge on the boss who betrayed him (many spy thrillers). The list suddenly becomes of no importance about half way through the film and is never mentioned again. It's just a tool to get M in the right place at the right time to kill her. And then he bottles it. And then he as the chance to kill her again, and bottles it. He isn't really trying is he?
- M's character goes from being a strong female character to somebody who needs to be continually rescued by men. I really feel she should have been the one to stab Silver - he could have the gun on her, reel away, and she's had the knife all along - she's already said she's not good with guns, but how about a knife? Add this to Eve (Moneypenny)'s character who is a good field agent (but no Bond), is continually belittled by Bond and by the end is happy being a secretary, and another female character who is casually shot as a joke - the entire film smacks of misogyny. Oh, and the politician trying to bring Mi6 down? A mis-informed woman of course.
I think these two points are unfair to the entire series of Bond films.
Bad guys botching their opportunity to kill Bond has been parodied to death for a LONG time.
Bad guys hatching ridiculous plots with over the top tools and means to achieve rather short sighted ends has as well.

And ... of course, to say that THIS Bond film smacks of misogyny, as if all of the others didn't is... um... well... I mean, come on man... I know of course you have watched all of the other Bond films, so... how have you missed it up until Skyfall? This has been the feminist argument against Bond for decades. Why do you think my mother tried to keep my dad from taking me to see them?
To come down on this one for putting women in their places, so to speak, is like coming down on Rambo for killing tpo many vietnamese guards.
I think the reason I brought this up is because, since Judi Dench took over as M, she's not been portrayed in this way at all. In fact, when she first appears, she calls him a "misogynist dinosaur", instantly drawing attention to the misogyny of the previous films, whilst at the same time almost pinning the blame on the character of Bond (and by extension the audience), rather than the films themselves. Whilst the Brosnan films continued to be misogynous, they also attempted to have Bond have more worthwhile relationships with the Bond-girls and actually care, even if only a little, or to have characters who are also super-spies whilst being female (the beach scene in Goldeneye, Teri Hatcher as the ex in TND; Michelle Yeoh in TND, Halle Berry in DAD (not really one in TWinE, however the villain is an intelligent woman, so maybe that's their option there)). When Craig took over, Dench continues to portray M as an extremely capable, strong woman, whilst also making her more ruthless. Craig's Bond falls in love and mourns Eva Green's loss, Olga Korylenko's character in QoS is a strong, driven character and (IIRC) doesn't sleep with Bond. So to go from this, not exactly great, but improving view, to the old-fashioned incapable damsel in distress viewpoint, whilst turning M into someone who constantly needs rescuing is, in my view, more noticeably misogynist than the previous films.

As for the over-the-top villain plans beforehand, fair point; but at least they actually made sense in some way as they tended to have a goal. We never really understand what Silver aims to achieve (apart from killing M). Even Dr. Evil has an end-game.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#17 Post by Mazer » 13 Dec 2012, 20:19

Just saw it tonight and enjoyed it. Not as much as Casino Royale, way more than Quantum of Solace.

Responding to a couple things from the thread. Re the misogyny, what annoyed me more than the weakness or the rescuing was the stupidity. You're running away from a bad guy in the dark and he has no idea where you are? Turn off the damn light and conceal yourself! M ran MI6 for how long, and she couldn't figure that out? I was thinking that was another part of the setup, and the light was going to lead him into a trap. Then when Bardem came in and she was there alone, I thought she was bait again, and Kincaide would be waiting, but no. And then, yes, I expected her to be the one to use Chekhov's knife, so that scene was a series of disappointments.

Re the gadgetry, I actually like how they did it, with the exploding pen line, but then they did also get gadget-y and do a call back with the car shooting from the lights. I thoughtit was fun, and they figured out how to have their cake and eat it too, both mocking the gadgets and using them.

A couple other random points:
- I like that they played with Bond's sexuality, with the "what makes you think it's my first time?" Line.
- Yes, yes, yes, on the worn out plot list. How many hard drives with lists of agents are out there? Also tired of the 'part of my plan is letting myself be captured" twist.
- I liked the Mallory character. Maybe it was also predictable, but I didn't really think that he would turn out decent. I also liked the fight scene at the inquiry. It felt like you could really see a strategy developing among the agents in terms of getting people armed, then working together.
- Damn can Daniel Craig wear a suit well.

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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#18 Post by Nunis » 01 Jan 2013, 11:34

We watched this last night. Movie essentially wrapped up our 2012, ending at ten minutes to midnight.

And I agree wholly with A². What a complete piece of crap, an unholy mess of plot and character and just boooooring. Good grief that blew.

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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#19 Post by Toto le Héros » 14 Jan 2013, 02:10

I watched it a month ago, and really enjoyed it.
I could not believe how long it took to see the villain though. And I would have shot the silly James Bond girl myself.
Besides that, it was our first movie date since April 2011...birthdate of the Princess... So yeah ! It was great !!

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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#20 Post by Steel Frog » 24 Jan 2013, 18:25

My daughter: "why can't Bond just shave himself?"

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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#21 Post by Buckykatt » 24 Jan 2013, 19:07

Steel Frog wrote:My daughter: "why can't Bond just shave himself?"
Seriously, why am I (and one male friend) the only one who finds the shaving scene enormously erotic?

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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#22 Post by Steel Frog » 24 Jan 2013, 20:13

Buckykatt wrote:
Steel Frog wrote:My daughter: "why can't Bond just shave himself?"
Seriously, why am I (and one male friend) the only one who finds the shaving scene enormously erotic?
It scared me.

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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#23 Post by Bill » 24 Jan 2013, 22:12

Steel Frog wrote:
Buckykatt wrote:
Steel Frog wrote:My daughter: "why can't Bond just shave himself?"
Seriously, why am I (and one male friend) the only one who finds the shaving scene enormously erotic?
It scared me.
Considering she shot him once, it's bewildering that Bond would let her shave him with that razor!
.

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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#24 Post by Toasty » 25 Jan 2013, 08:46

Buckykatt wrote:
Steel Frog wrote:My daughter: "why can't Bond just shave himself?"
Seriously, why am I (and one male friend) the only one who finds the shaving scene enormously erotic?
Shaving someone can be very erotic... Definitely an ice breaker.
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Re: Skyfall (spoilers within)

#25 Post by sldawgs » 25 Jan 2013, 08:56

Toasty wrote:
Buckykatt wrote:
Steel Frog wrote:My daughter: "why can't Bond just shave himself?"
Seriously, why am I (and one male friend) the only one who finds the shaving scene enormously erotic?
Shaving someone can be very erotic... Definitely an ice breaker.
There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's breathtaking- I highly suggest you try it.
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