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 Post subject: Whitey discusses race
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2015, 19:40 
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enough talk about talking about race elsewhere. here is a central location for it all. keep it civil and don't get your feelings hurt if you disagree with someone else.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2015, 20:13 
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Why is it if I think something is not about race or shouldn't be about race, suddenly I am racist?

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2015, 20:31 
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Most of the time I feel like I'm not allowed to have an opinion about race in America. As a white male who's never been discriminated against (that I'm aware of) I may not have the right perspective to have an accurate opinion.

I've probably been fat discriminated at one time or another, but that's not really the same thing. Those bitches don't know what they were missing.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2015, 20:52 
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That's what I am saying, I'm a middle aged white man. According to the media, that automatically means I'm a racist.

By the way, where do I get some of that white privilege everyone is talking about? I bust my ass to make a wage that barely gets me through a month.

And fat is one of the few things that can be discriminated against and no one cares. I would like to walk into a store and find something to wear, and if I do find something that fits and I like, it's twice as much.

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PostPosted: 18 Jan 2015, 22:21 
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Well, to begin with, I don't think anyone of a certain age is truly 100% racism free. Between upbringing, life experience, stereotypes and an inherent human distrust of "the other", I wouldn't believe anyone that said they never even had a racist thought.

As a white man with a darker complexion, I've actually had 3 or 4 times in my life I know of that I've been mistaken for Hispanic or mixed race, and have been discriminated against or profiled by other whites - once by an armed, overzealous neighborhood watch asshole. These situations always ended when I spoke, and my still mostly-Midwestern white guy accent came out (but then I get treated as a damn Yankee ;) ).

I've never felt threatened by the police during a traffic stop, and I never felt, despite my size, that I was ever considered a threat.

The only jobs I've had that were as diverse as our society were the lowest paying ones.

With the documented differences in unemployment, wages, housing, and many, many other areas, it seems pretty obvious that there's still a long way to go. Obviously things are better than they were 50, 100, or 200 years ago, but its still widespread, much more subtle in many ways, and consciously or not, very systemic.

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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2015, 03:07 
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When I was little, my Mom made sure I never knew what racism was. I always saw people for who they were and not what they looked like. I know everyone thinks it's impossible for a white girl to not see color, but I was young and I truly didn't. I will never forget learning about racism in 7th grade history. That is truly the first time I ever knew people were treated like animals just because of their skin color. I remember coming home and asking my Mom why she never told me. I asked her to help me understand because I simply couldn't imagine people doing that to one another. She said she didn't tell me because it was important that I see people as people for as long as I could. Now that I knew about racism, things would always be different. She was right. It would be nice to never teach our kids about that, but that is never going to happen.
I continued to see people for who they were though. It wasn't until I moved to Atlanta and started seeing the anger in the black people who had these huge chips on their shoulders, that I started to realize that this was a huge problem. I was a buidling manager that housed a lot of employees, who were mostly black. One day, the security guard and I were up front and the walkie kept ringing but when he answered it, no one was there. One of the employees came up, and angrily said this to me "I see you're standing up here not answering me when I call you...you don't want to talk to the black woman?" My jaw dropped. I calmly said, "Donna, the phone isn't working and Chris is the one holding it." When she heard that, she said "Oh ok. No problem brother. " and she left. They automatically assume they're being discriminated and I think that is the whole problem. She didn't apologize to me or anything. I found that as rude as hell and had it been the other way around...if I had said something about her being black and not apologizing to her...the news channels would've been summoned.
Yes, I agree that if people in red hats always beat me up I would always assume I would get beat up every time I saw someone in a red hat. But after so many times of NOT getting beat up by a red hat person, I would start to feel safer and I would move on. I wouldn't start beating up the people in the red hats! That is the way MLK jr., Jesus and many other peaceful leaders told us to be. We will never get everyone on board with turning the other cheek but that's what needs to happen.
I think in this PC world we live in, everyone is too into other people's business. If we all just backed off a little and lived our own lives, stopped paying attention to every honey boo boo and tweet, the world might be a better more peaceful place.
I'm not very eloquent but these are my thoughts nonetheless.
PS...I do understand being treated differently because of who you are. Every stare I get from some man I don't know, every honey, sweetie, or darlin' I get, every ginger's have no soul. But I don't let it get to me. I ignore it and move on. You can't fix stupid.


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2015, 04:25 
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What's a nubian?

Right now, especially if you are a frequent reader of sites like buzzfeed, being a hetrosexual white middle class middle aged male basically makes you the devil.

I live in North London, a very asian area (not that I'm complaining, I actually feel safer than I would in surrounding 'white' areas where white on white crime is rife!) Sometimes I go to a shop and the person barely speaks English, that can suck. If I'm on a bus there may be 30 people on the bus and 3 of them white, that really doesn't bother me.

What does bother me is when there is all this talk for example about the Oscars. Okay, no people of different race were nominated. But have you seen the movies? This isn't like last year, it just so happens that the best actors have been of a certain colour (Jake Gyllenhaal is the biggest travesty this year)

So what if we have a black storm trooper??? Idris Elba for Bond, why not, if he is the best guy for the part. King Pin in Daredevil was portrayed by a black actor... good, was great casting (in an awful film).

I'm lucky I live in London, one of the most racially diverse areas on the planet. I've grown up with the united colours of benetton. The fact is people can be dicks, doesn't matter what colour you are, doesn't stop you being a wanker. Renton said it best: "1,000 years from now there will be no guys and no girls, just wankers. Sounds great to me."

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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2015, 06:33 
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Dawson wrote:
The fact is people can be dicks, doesn't matter what colour you are, doesn't stop you being a wanker. Renton said it best: "1,000 years from now there will be no guys and no girls, just wankers. Sounds great to me."

Got that right and hell yeah!


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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2015, 10:19 
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I remember my elementary schools attempt to teach us about racism.
I was in the 4th grade and at the start of the day they seperated the class into two groups. One got a black arm band (As I started out) and the other half got a white armband.

The white arm bands got to play games and watch movies while the black arm bands had to do homework. Me being kinda a smart ass through most of school anyway decided that I would refuse to do the homework... because I knew it was never going to matter to my grade and was just a waste of time so they could show me a stupid lesson on racism. That got me sent to the corner and given more busy work... and after lunch when everyone got to switch arm bands they made me keep the black one.

I always thought it kinda funny that in their attempt to teach equality they persecuted me. Suffice to say that was one of the last years they attempted that experiment. :roll:

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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2015, 10:38 
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Odd Todd wrote:
I remember my elementary schools attempt to teach us about racism.
I was in the 4th grade and at the start of the day they seperated the class into two groups. One got a black arm band (As I started out) and the other half got a white armband.

The white arm bands got to play games and watch movies while the black arm bands had to do homework. Me being kinda a smart ass through most of school anyway decided that I would refuse to do the homework... because I knew it was never going to matter to my grade and was just a waste of time so they could show me a stupid lesson on racism. That got me sent to the corner and given more busy work... and after lunch when everyone got to switch arm bands they made me keep the black one.

I always thought it kinda funny that in their attempt to teach equality they persecuted me. Suffice to say that was one of the last years they attempted that experiment. :roll:

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PostPosted: 19 Jan 2015, 14:24 
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I think that the ability to say 'why do we have to talk about race?' or 'why can't we all just see past race?' is itself an expression of privilege. It's pretty clear to me from events and media in the past year that race is still a hugely present issue, and society isn't at a point yet where we can move on. Jon Stewart had a line at the end of a bit he did about Ferguson that has really stayed with me - "If you are tired about hearing about it, imagine how exhausting it is living it".

About the Oscars specifically, I haven't seen Selma, so can't weigh in on whether the non-nominations are a travesty or not, completely apart from racism. But I do think we need to acknowledge that the industry is highly problematic in terms of race. Here's a great Chris Rock piece about it. So, if the industry itself isn't allowing people of colour to star in or create films, they aren't going to get the same opportunities for recognition that something like the Oscars provide. It may not be a result of any individuals being racist so much as a racist system.

And like I said, I don't think it's fair to sweep that under the table with a 'why does it have to be about race?' If the problem can't even be acknowledged, how is it going to be fixed?


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 00:23 
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Mazer wrote:
I think that the ability to say 'why do we have to talk about race?' or 'why can't we all just see past race?' is itself an expression of privilege. It's pretty clear to me from events and media in the past year that race is still a hugely present issue, and society isn't at a point yet where we can move on. Jon Stewart had a line at the end of a bit he did about Ferguson that has really stayed with me - "If you are tired about hearing about it, imagine how exhausting it is living it".

About the Oscars specifically, I haven't seen Selma, so can't weigh in on whether the non-nominations are a travesty or not, completely apart from racism. But I do think we need to acknowledge that the industry is highly problematic in terms of race. Here's a great Chris Rock piece about it. So, if the industry itself isn't allowing people of colour to star in or create films, they aren't going to get the same opportunities for recognition that something like the Oscars provide. It may not be a result of any individuals being racist so much as a racist system.

And like I said, I don't think it's fair to sweep that under the table with a 'why does it have to be about race?' If the problem can't even be acknowledged, how is it going to be fixed?


Are people screaming as much about the lack of hispanic people being nominated as well?

I have seen Selma, and it really isn't very good. It's a film made to get an oscar, kind of like The butler. high on drama, low on substance. Yes Hollywood needs to create more diversity, but the Oscars can't be blamed when there is a lack of movies being made.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 10:09 
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Dawson wrote:
Mazer wrote:
I think that the ability to say 'why do we have to talk about race?' or 'why can't we all just see past race?' is itself an expression of privilege. It's pretty clear to me from events and media in the past year that race is still a hugely present issue, and society isn't at a point yet where we can move on. Jon Stewart had a line at the end of a bit he did about Ferguson that has really stayed with me - "If you are tired about hearing about it, imagine how exhausting it is living it".

About the Oscars specifically, I haven't seen Selma, so can't weigh in on whether the non-nominations are a travesty or not, completely apart from racism. But I do think we need to acknowledge that the industry is highly problematic in terms of race. Here's a great Chris Rock piece about it. So, if the industry itself isn't allowing people of colour to star in or create films, they aren't going to get the same opportunities for recognition that something like the Oscars provide. It may not be a result of any individuals being racist so much as a racist system.

And like I said, I don't think it's fair to sweep that under the table with a 'why does it have to be about race?' If the problem can't even be acknowledged, how is it going to be fixed?


Are people screaming as much about the lack of hispanic people being nominated as well?

I have seen Selma, and it really isn't very good. It's a film made to get an oscar, kind of like The butler. high on drama, low on substance. Yes Hollywood needs to create more diversity, but the Oscars can't be blamed when there is a lack of movies being made.

I think people are screaming no matter what as long as white people are in something and anyone else is not. God damn the white man I guess huh?

I don't think there isn't a problem but I think that the majority of educated people have the ability to see beyond color, and by color I mean anyone that isn't white. If everyone would view people as just people and not as a black person, white person, etc. then the problem would be solved. I also believe that if everyone stopped paying attention to the Al Sharpton types and minded their own business a little more, the problem would also start to solve itself. I do agree that there are stupid people who will never see anything but black or white but that goes for all races, not just dumb ass white yokels with rebel flags flying. Sam Jackson said it best at the beginning of Die Hard 3: Zeus: And who do we want not to help us? Kids: White people. It spans all races, not just white against black.

Saying "why does it have to be about race" doesn't make me privileged or blind to racism, it makes me someone who can see that continually talking about it and perpetuating the problem is not going to solve anything. We all know by now that there is a problem and we've been talking about it for a long damn time...hasn't gotten us anywhere has it? How about moving on and trying a different approach? That's all I'm saying. If we stop talking about different colors and focusing all our attention on different colors, maybe soon we won't see different colors.
As far as Hollywood goes, I'd say all-white films have gotten fewer and further between. It will take time to see more and more diverse characters in the movies, but it'll get there. I like Knarf's comment "as much as I'd hate it if people weren't receiving votes due their race, I don't think anyone should receive a vote because of their race either". Would you like to see more black or hispanic actors in movies just so they can feel like they're included, or because they were good actors and right for the role?

And as for ole Jon Stewart's comment...I do live it. Come on and visit me in Atlanta sometime and you will feel just like I do every day. I'm usually one of a few white people in any given place, I am treated rudely, stared at, laughed at sometimes even and pretty much made to feel like I have no business being there. It does suck for sure, but I don't take it personally. I just go about my business and treat everyone around me with kindness...kinda like how I'd want to be treated. Their opinion of me is just that, their opinion. I can't change it as I'm sure I can't change anyone else's about racism.


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 10:49 
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I also want to say that I'm not attacking anyone on here. This is a sensitive discussion but hopefully everyone knows not to take anything said personally. :D


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 10:50 
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Getting back to the Oscars and why I am frustrated. What I am hearing alot is why didn't Ava DuVernay get a nomination? Her movie got a best picture nomination, why not her? You know what I don't hear?

Why didn't Clint Eastwood get a nomination? Why didn't James Marsh get one? Why didn't Damien Chazelle get one? They all had their movie nominated.

You know what else I am not hearing? The fact that there are eight Best Picture nominees, but only five directing nominees? Someone was going to be left out. If getting a Best Picture nomination automatically gets you a Best Director nominations, why even have the catagory at all? And what about Bennett Miller? Why wasn't Foxcatcher nominated for best picture if he is one of the five so-called best directors?

I'm sorry, I am a little frustrated, I can't seem to get my point across. What I am not saying very well is that these are definitly Oscar snubs, we all agree to that, but there are Oscar snubs every single year. Fight to make better movies, and not just Oscar Bait movies like Selma. You know I never even heard of Selma until about a week before the nominations (or Whiplash either), but I had heard about the others.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 11:00 
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sldawgs wrote:
Getting back to the Oscars and why I am frustrated. What I am hearing alot is why didn't Ava DuVernay get a nomination? Her movie got a best picture nomination, why not her? You know what I don't hear?

Why didn't Clint Eastwood get a nomination? Why didn't James Marsh get one? Why didn't Damien Chazelle get one? They all had their movie nominated.

You know what else I am not hearing? The fact that there are eight Best Picture nominees, but only five directing nominees? Someone was going to be left out. If getting a Best Picture nomination automatically gets you a Best Director nominations, why even have the catagory at all? And what about Bennett Miller? Why wasn't Foxcatcher nominated for best picture if he is one of the five so-called best directors?

I'm sorry, I am a little frustrated, I can't seem to get my point across. What I am not saying very well is that these are definitly Oscar snubs, we all agree to that, but there are Oscar snubs every single year. Fight to make better movies, and not just Oscar Bait movies like Selma. You know I never even heard of Selma until about a week before the nominations (or Whiplash either), but I had heard about the others.

I wish the head of the nomination committee or the Oscar in charge would come out and say...the nominations are for the best work, nothing more, nothing less.If you don't like it, don't watch! Someone needs to put their foot down and stop all the whining. Isn't anyone in charge?


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 11:12 
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spymeg wrote:
As far as Hollywood goes, I'd say all-white films have gotten fewer and further between. It will take time to see more and more diverse characters in the movies, but it'll get there. I like Knarf's comment "as much as I'd hate it if people weren't receiving votes due their race, I don't think anyone should receive a vote because of their race either". Would you like to see more black or hispanic actors in movies just so they can feel like they're included, or because they were good actors and right for the role?
You're right about fewer all-white films, but white leading characters are still the "default" choice for most films, and the actors-of-color, no matter what their abilities, aren't even considered for the roles. "Right for the role" actually means "white for the role" way too often.

spymeg wrote:
And as for ole Jon Stewart's comment...I do live it. Come on and visit me in Atlanta sometime and you will feel just like I do every day. I'm usually one of a few white people in any given place, I am treated rudely, stared at, laughed at sometimes even and pretty much made to feel like I have no business being there. It does suck for sure, but I don't take it personally. I just go about my business and treat everyone around me with kindness...kinda like how I'd want to be treated. Their opinion of me is just that, their opinion. I can't change it as I'm sure I can't change anyone else's about racism.
Everybody lives it to some point, but there's a difference between being in an uncomfortable position and living in a society where you're treated as a second class citizen in many ways. One of my professors put it pretty well when another student didn't think racism was a problem any more. He asked "How many black people do you think ever wished, even once, that they were white? Now how many white people do you imagine ever wished they were black?"

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 11:14 
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spymeg wrote:
sldawgs wrote:
Getting back to the Oscars and why I am frustrated. What I am hearing alot is why didn't Ava DuVernay get a nomination? Her movie got a best picture nomination, why not her? You know what I don't hear?

Why didn't Clint Eastwood get a nomination? Why didn't James Marsh get one? Why didn't Damien Chazelle get one? They all had their movie nominated.

You know what else I am not hearing? The fact that there are eight Best Picture nominees, but only five directing nominees? Someone was going to be left out. If getting a Best Picture nomination automatically gets you a Best Director nominations, why even have the catagory at all? And what about Bennett Miller? Why wasn't Foxcatcher nominated for best picture if he is one of the five so-called best directors?

I'm sorry, I am a little frustrated, I can't seem to get my point across. What I am not saying very well is that these are definitly Oscar snubs, we all agree to that, but there are Oscar snubs every single year. Fight to make better movies, and not just Oscar Bait movies like Selma. You know I never even heard of Selma until about a week before the nominations (or Whiplash either), but I had heard about the others.

I wish the head of the nomination committee or the Oscar in charge would come out and say...the nominations are for the best work, nothing more, nothing less.If you don't like it, don't watch! Someone needs to put their foot down and stop all the whining. Isn't anyone in charge?

Yeah, like I said in the other thread, the Oscar thing seems ridiculous, but I still think it represents the real problem.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 11:14 
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spymeg wrote:
I also want to say that I'm not attacking anyone on here. This is a sensitive discussion but hopefully everyone knows not to take anything said personally. :D

:green: :D

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 11:21 
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knarf wrote:
spymeg wrote:
As far as Hollywood goes, I'd say all-white films have gotten fewer and further between. It will take time to see more and more diverse characters in the movies, but it'll get there. I like Knarf's comment "as much as I'd hate it if people weren't receiving votes due their race, I don't think anyone should receive a vote because of their race either". Would you like to see more black or hispanic actors in movies just so they can feel like they're included, or because they were good actors and right for the role?
You're right about fewer all-white films, but white leading characters are still the "default" choice for most films, and the actors-of-color, no matter what their abilities, aren't even considered for the roles. "Right for the role" actually means "white for the role" way too often.

Yeah I can see that. The role isn't geared for a non white person to play it. But there has been a lot of headway made in the last decade. More and more all black casts & non white leads are popping up. It's not perfect, but they're getting there. I don't think Hollywood of all places is setting out not to cast non-white actors though. They're as liberal as it gets.

knarf wrote:
spymeg wrote:
And as for ole Jon Stewart's comment...I do live it. Come on and visit me in Atlanta sometime and you will feel just like I do every day. I'm usually one of a few white people in any given place, I am treated rudely, stared at, laughed at sometimes even and pretty much made to feel like I have no business being there. It does suck for sure, but I don't take it personally. I just go about my business and treat everyone around me with kindness...kinda like how I'd want to be treated. Their opinion of me is just that, their opinion. I can't change it as I'm sure I can't change anyone else's about racism.
Everybody lives it to some point, but there's a difference between being in an uncomfortable position and living in a society where you're treated as a second class citizen in many ways. One of my professors put it pretty well when another student didn't think racism was a problem any more. He asked "How many black people do you think ever wished, even once, that they were white? Now how many white people do you imagine ever wished they were black?"


And I get this too, but I don't think a black person wishes he/she were white only that they wouldn't have the same problems that black people used to face. The thing is, it's not like it was in the sixties and I think we as a nation have made a lot of advances in terms of treating people equally. It's just that every time someone doesn't get their way, they call racism. That's how I see it anyway. I thought we were all doing pretty good at treating each other better. At least in Texas they do. Not in Atlanta. I am a second class citizen here.


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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 11:23 
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knarf wrote:
spymeg wrote:
As far as Hollywood goes, I'd say all-white films have gotten fewer and further between. It will take time to see more and more diverse characters in the movies, but it'll get there. I like Knarf's comment "as much as I'd hate it if people weren't receiving votes due their race, I don't think anyone should receive a vote because of their race either". Would you like to see more black or hispanic actors in movies just so they can feel like they're included, or because they were good actors and right for the role?
You're right about fewer all-white films, but white leading characters are still the "default" choice for most films, and the actors-of-color, no matter what their abilities, aren't even considered for the roles. "Right for the role" actually means "white for the role" way too often.

[sarcasm]Well, there is always a role available in a Tyler Perry movie.[/sarcasm] ;)

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 11:26 
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spymeg wrote:
I don't think Hollywood of all places is setting out not to cast non-white actors though. They're as liberal as it gets.

I never thought I would say this, but it seems Hollywood is not liberal enough for some.

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 12:34 
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FilmWise Sugar Daddy
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spymeg wrote:
I am a second class citizen here.

Sucks being a minority, don't it? ;)

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PostPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 12:50 
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knarf wrote:
spymeg wrote:
I am a second class citizen here.

Sucks being a minority, don't it? ;)

I can see how it would if you took being treated this way personally. I just chalk it off as people being stupid and go on about my business. What they think means nothing to me and I know I make my own way in this life. I'm responsible for the way I react to others and how I handle it. Sitting around feeling sorry for myself doesn't do any good, that's for sure. It is scary at times though, so that part does suck.


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PostPosted: 23 Jan 2015, 01:40 
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FilmWise's Moral Imperative
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There was a big discussion over here (UK) recently about how all actors of colour were moving to USA as there just weren't the opportunities to work. Then someone else mentioned that it was actually every actor. Obviously there is more work in america. Unless you are Benedict Cumberbatch or Martin Freeman, and even they go over the pond for more work!

We also always get the 'We need a black James Bond' arguments. I'm all for any Bond as long as he's cool enough (I'd go for Chiwetel Ejiofor over Idris elba) but I do draw the line at a female Dr Who.

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