Book Talk: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (spoilers)

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TK421
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#51 Post by TK421 » 11 Jul 2007, 04:30

I agree with not liking how Harry was portrayed in OotP. However, more than anything, I've always attributed his flaws to JKR being a female. I think that she is attempting to portray Harry as a typical teenage boy. In general, when a guy is in his teens, he goes through a whole heck of a lot of changes. I'm not saying that chicks don't do that. With boys, though, you've got to "be a man" through all of this, but you don't exactly know what that requires. The frustrations over this can lead to anger and all. I believe that Harry's anger was an attempt by JKR to show us Harry's process of maturation. I just think that it was done very well.
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#52 Post by Mazer » 11 Jul 2007, 09:09

Humphrey wrote:I reread Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince over the past week. I realised that it was not the books that I disliked, but Harry himself. I cannot identify with him for various reasons. First of all, he is always suspicious of everyone, he is a busybody, he is completely self-obsessed, he does not listen to words of guidance, he thinks he knows everything best, he is petulant, insensitive and a hypocrite. He tries to use unforgivable curses (unforgivable - so why are we expected to forgive him?), he puts everyone in danger all the time and is only rarely justified in doing so. He has no special abilities, talents or intellect. In brief: he is a sullen little cunt of a teenager. And I do not like teenagers.
and TK421 wrote:I agree with not liking how Harry was portrayed in OotP.
Ok, I'm just finishing my reread of Order and haven't hit Prince yet, but I found it had the opposite effect on me. I definitely found that Harry was certainly surly, and a bit of a shit at times, but I liked that, as part of his growing process. Whether he is the character with whom one identifies or not, it is his series, and it would be boring if he were a perfect paragon of virtue throughout. I know that's not what anyone is suggesting, but I think his flaws, and the lessons he learns because of those, are what make his growth really interesting. For instance, it was completely nosy of him, and uncalled for, to go into Snape's memories, but the lesson he learned from that, that his father was a big jerk and Lily didn't initially love him, was a harsh one for him. It might be a question of degree, because I see most of the flaws you pointed out in him, Humphrey, but not to the extent that they alienate me from him.

One flagrant example of where I think Harry rushed ahead and did something that was uncalled for was in Philosopher's Stone - to think, as a first year, that he could defeat the guards and save the stone was slightly ridiculous. Also, in my reading, there would have been less of an issue if he hadn't gone, because Quirrell would have been stuck there forever, trying to figure out how to get the stone from the mirror, so Harry should have trusted Dumbledore's defences. But, most of his other main actions, I think, he really is compelled to take, either because he's forced into the situation (as in Goblet) or, based on the information he has, it's the only path available to him (going to the Dept. of Mysteries in Order).

As to special talent or abilities, I disagree that there's nothing, especially after rereading Order, and the sections with Dumbledore's Army. But, I will grant, that for a wizard, he's pretty close to ordinary. This is something I like about the books though - that he's not special, but often forced into the spotlight for one particular shining (or green flashing) moment in his life that he had no control over. Because I seem to see his actions as justifiable at least, most of the time, this endears me to him, because he goes into these things, after Goblet, knowing what he will face, and scared of that, but doing it anyways. As a question, Humphrey, would you find it preferable if at the end of Order, he wouldn't let anyone join him, so not to put them in danger?
Humphrey wrote:Throughout the series I have felt a much stronger sense of identification with Snape, who - the last book makes it crystal clear: he does work for Dumbledore, he is, like Harry, Dumbledore's man through and through, and had he not killed Dumbledore at the end of the book, he himself would have died, and clearly his continued perceived loyalty to Voldemort would be of the utmost importance, whereas Dumbledore had served his purpose, gave Harry all the tools he needs, etc - is always a lone voice of reason (admittedly, a hideously sarcastic one, but still reasonable). He has not yet done anything that we should hate him for, on the contrary, he is second only to Dumbledore in terms of efforts exerted against the rising power of Voldemort, and will be a lynchpin in the denoument.
Again, opposite reaction on this read through. I found that I really disliked him this time. His hatred of Harry - for reasons having to do with his parents, not him, is so vicious. I found myself wishing I could tell him to just get over it. At times he really torments Harry, and abuses his position at Hogwarts to do so (the docking points). The misuse of authority thing is also the way Umbridge works, which really makes me cringe. Also, the one scene that really tore it for me is at the end of Azkaban, where he goes ballistic about Sirius's escape and Harry's role in it. Dumbledore shows all this trust in him, but he doesn't seem able to reverse that, and have faith in the other people Dumbledore trusts. And again, he lashes out in an inappropriate way, letting slip that Lupin is a werewolf, hurting someone fairly remote from the issue of Sirius's escape.

I also expect more from him that Harry because he's an adult, and so should no better by now. He should be past some of these flaws, while Harry has to go through his.

This is how I see things, at the end of Order. I'll letting you know if I change position once I'm into Prince.

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#53 Post by Mazer » 14 Jul 2007, 10:26

Ok, I'll double post with a few more thoughts. Finished my re-read, and am eagerly awaiting Deathly Hallows. I liked Prince a little more this time than I did before, but I still probably think it's the weakest in the series, whose main function is to set up seven.

In rereading Prince, I did come a little more around to Humphrey's way of thinking. Harry really is a brat at times, and with his whole endless suspicion of Malfoy, I really got annoyed with him.

A few other thoughts:
- Love how Ginny Weasley progresses through the books. She really has one of the best character arcs, so I hope, despite the breakup, she still has a substantial role.
- One of the things that is mentioned almost as much as Harry's eyes is the fact that you can't Apparate on Hogwarts grounds. I don't know if the pay-off of that was all played out in Prince, with the cabinet, and then Malfoy and Snape running for the gates, but it seemed like something that could maybe still be significant.
- I know this topic is coming, but since I won't be here, I'm going to give my two cents on Snape too. As I mentioned in my previous monster post, I'm a little dismayed about him. However, this actually puts me more in the "Snape is good" camp, because I think that with the way he feels and acts about Harry as is, if he were still with Voldemort, he would have found some opportunity to kill Harry.
- There are a lot of personal revenge dramas being set up (Harry and Voldemort, Lupin and Grayback, Neville and Bellatrix), which makes me nervous that it will become each person's moment in turn (with Harry's last, of course). I think that would be a little too pat, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to deprive any of them of their chance at vengeance, so I'm not sure where that leaves me.

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#54 Post by enigmafa » 15 Jul 2007, 08:07

Image[/quote]
I'm sort of suprised no one else mentioned the oddities of this family tree. First, Dorea married Charlus Potter (my bet is there isn't much to this otherwise it would have come up long ago). Second, right next them on the tree is Callidora who married Harfang Longbottom. The tree doesn't give the birth/death dates for spouses but Callidora is still alive. Also in that branch is Caspar Crouch a possible relative of the Bartys? Finally, their sister Cedrella Married Septimus Weasley. I doubt any of this has any real bearing on the book but still interesting to know.
Now onto my theories
I'll save some time and say Nunis has sold me on most of her theories except these few small things.
I don't have a copy in house but i only remember AD blocking the AK with the fountian pieces and Fawkes eating one, I don't remeber a spell though i may be wrong.
My bet on deaths is one of the Weasley's, Molly has said before she doesn't know if they will all make it through. Early in the last book everyone will be at the wedding I can see that turning into a battle royal. I unfortunatly see the death of Ginney being a big catalyst for Harry.
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Re: Book: Harry Potter 7 (predictions and theories)

#55 Post by Agrajag » 15 Jul 2007, 11:03

Nunis wrote:
Agrajag wrote:
Nunis wrote:I don't read Mugglenet either.
NO WAY! Where do you get all the JK quotes and details and pics and trailers and whatnot? You're FW's Potter source, and I always assumed you visited MuggleNet or the like frequently, reading interviews and everything....
I didn't say I don't visit any site, I just don't like Mugglenet. I prefer The Leaky Cauldron, which is more professional, more mature, and has absolutely freakin' everything you want to know about Harry Potter.
Ok... as long as you read something. I wrote "Mugglenet et al" cause I don't even know all the different Potter sites that exist out there.
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#56 Post by Nicholasp27 » 17 Jul 2007, 08:10

i'm really liking the idea that dumbledore was impersonating snape in the beginning of HBP when he made the unbreakable vow

a) i think dd speaks parseltongue since he didn't ask harry to translate in the pensieve; so he was impersonating snape to extract wormtail's memories of what voldemort had said in parseltongue

b) the wording, apologies, politeness, explaining himself, etc from 'snape' to the sisters; jkr described him completely differently in that scene than in any other scene, offering a drink like dd always does, etc


just many things in general; telling us something so far before harry knows it; not using snapes name as narrator; only the sisters called him severus, not jkr; dd telling harry he'd research fave jam before impersonating himself...

it just all makes too much sense; dd took the vow and died from it, not the fake avada kedavra; snape didn't kill dd, dd did by taking the vow...thus why his hand shook for a second and why he was so rushing harry to get the horcrux memory from slughorn so he could learn the locations of as many as possible and go after as much as possible before draco went after him; he didn't know when he'd die, but he knew it'd be that school year

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#57 Post by JJ » 18 Jul 2007, 08:12

So I finally read Half Blood Prince. Good book; took just two days -- why did nobody tell me to start this crap earlier?

Now that I've gotten through some of the actual pages, the scar (or Harry himself, which I see as much less likely -- his glasses seem completely ridiculous, just because Voldemort could never trust a young boy never to lose, replace, or break his glasses) as a Horcrux makes a lot more sense. Rowling goes out of her way to print Dumbledore's specific speculation that Voldemort had created precisely 6 out of the 7 Horcruxes before killing Harry's parents.

And then Dumbledore offers some dumb theory about it being a snake (it's fairly lame and not examined to any great depth). I'm not buying that one.

I am buying that the other one is either an item from Ravensclaw or from Gryffindor. But not both.

And I think Snape will turn out to be "good".
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#58 Post by Nunis » 18 Jul 2007, 08:34

JJ wrote:So I finally read Half Blood Prince. Good book; took just two days -- why did nobody tell me to start this crap earlier?
I'm pretty sure I did. More than once.


Also, I still have a couple of big topics to discuss, but we have just 2 more days. Is anyone interested in me typing up a few more of these?

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#59 Post by Middle » 18 Jul 2007, 08:35

Nunis wrote:
JJ wrote:So I finally read Half Blood Prince. Good book; took just two days -- why did nobody tell me to start this crap earlier?
I'm pretty sure I did. More than once.


Also, I still have a couple of big topics to discuss, but we have just 2 more days. Is anyone interested in me typing up a few more of these?
Fuck yeah! I've got to do something during work... ;)
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#60 Post by JJ » 18 Jul 2007, 08:39

Nunis wrote:
JJ wrote:So I finally read Half Blood Prince. Good book; took just two days -- why did nobody tell me to start this crap earlier?
I'm pretty sure I did. More than once.
I apologized to my mom yesterday. She bought Sorcerer's Stone for me for Easter eight or so years ago (whenever it was fairly new). I had to confess to her that I'd never read it (until now).
La la la la la.

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#61 Post by Nunis » 18 Jul 2007, 08:42

JJ wrote:
Nunis wrote:
JJ wrote:So I finally read Half Blood Prince. Good book; took just two days -- why did nobody tell me to start this crap earlier?
I'm pretty sure I did. More than once.
I apologized to my mom yesterday. She bought Sorcerer's Stone for me for Easter eight or so years ago (whenever it was fairly new). I had to confess to her that I'd never read it (until now).
Well, you're on the right track now, son. Repent your wicked ways and I shall forgive you.

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#62 Post by JJ » 18 Jul 2007, 08:50

Nunis wrote:
JJ wrote:
Nunis wrote:
JJ wrote:So I finally read Half Blood Prince. Good book; took just two days -- why did nobody tell me to start this crap earlier?
I'm pretty sure I did. More than once.
I apologized to my mom yesterday. She bought Sorcerer's Stone for me for Easter eight or so years ago (whenever it was fairly new). I had to confess to her that I'd never read it (until now).
Well, you're on the right track now, son. Repent your wicked ways and I shall forgive you.
Yeah, that'll happen. :roll:
La la la la la.

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#63 Post by Nunis » 18 Jul 2007, 09:04

Dumbledore, his family, and his death

Let's start with Dumbledore's family.

"Dumbledore's family would be a profitable line of inquiry." (JKR)

I think it would seem reasonable to assume this refers to his brother Aberforth. We know Aberforth was a member of the original Order, and we know (well, we can deduce from the goat thing), that is he the barman at the Hog's Head. So the question becomes: what can Aberforth do to help Harry out?

And was Dumbledore ever married?

"A few of the Hogwarts professors have spouses, but the information is restricted -- we'll find out why!" (JKR)

Why would this information be restricted?

Will Dumbledore's portrait play a role in Book 7? How can it help Harry, if at all? JKR has said that portraits are not like ghosts, they can't convey much new information; they "repeat taglines and phrases", but can't really interact with the living in any meaningful way.

And what about Fawkes? Harry says at the end of Book 6 how he is sure that Fawkes had left Hogwarts forever. JKR has hinted that "Fawkes probably has a role to play in Book 7", so what might this be? She refused to discuss the topic, but said her silence was a clue. So, where is Fawkes, and who does he belong to now Dumbledore is dead? Harry? Did Dumbledore leave a will?

Ok, so now his death. We'll come to Snape's part in it later, but here are some things that might be worth thinking about and discussing.

What did the potion in the cave do to Dumbledore? What did it make him see? Was it his worst memory, his biggest fear, or something else? And was Dumbledore going to die anyway, because of the potion?



The Potters and "that fateful night"

This is one of the things I'm dying to find out most. What really happened that night in Godric's Hollow? Who was there? Let's look at some more quotes from Jo.

"An important question we should be asking is: 'Why did Dumbledore have James's Invisibility Cloak at the time of James’ death, given that Dumbledore could make himself invisible without a cloak?'" (JKR)

If Dumbledore having James's cloak was just for safe-keeping, this wouldn't be "important." Jo seems to be hinting here that James lent Dumbledore the cloak for someone else to use. Someone else who had gone into hiding? Perhaps someone spying for Dumbledore? In the "Rumours" section of her website, Jo has also told us that Snape was not hiding under the Invisibility Cloak on the night the Potters died. And remember, James left the cloak to Dumbledore before anyone knew they were in danger at Godric's Hollow. So, why did Dumbledore have James's cloak?

"What Harry's parents did for a living is important." (JKR)

So, what did Harry's mum and dad do for a living? Were they Aurors? Did they work in the Department of Mysteries? Collect relics from the founders of Hogwarts? Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that Harry has never, in six years, asked what his parents did?

"We will find out why Voldemort gave Lily so many chances to live. (JKR)"

Why was Lily's life important? Is this related to what she did for a living? You guys already know what I think: he offered to spare her for Snape. But there might be other reasons. Why do you think Voldemort offered Lily the chance to live?

Here are a bunch of other stuff you might wanna think about and discuss when it comes to that night.

Who else was at Godric's Hollow the night of Harry's parents's deaths? It wasn't Snape under the cloak, but that doesn't mean he wasn't there. Was Wormtail there? Anyone else?

And who retrieved Voldemort's wand from Godric's Hollow? Snape? Wormtail? Someone else?

What happened in the twenty-four hours between Voldemort killing the Potters and Hagrid delivering Harry to the Dursleys?

Under what circumstances did Lily and James defy Voldemort three times?

How did the wizarding world find out so quickly that Voldemort had vanished? Who was responsible for spreading this news?

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#64 Post by Nunis » 18 Jul 2007, 09:06

As you might have noticed, I haven't added many of my own thoughts to the above topics of discussion. This is partly because I don't have great ideas beyond the obvious, but mainly because I like these two topics (Dumbledore and Godric's Hollow) to remain a mystery to me, at least for another two days.


Tomorrow, I will post the last topics I have on my sheet, including: The Department of Mysteries, The Black Family, various things on Other Wizards, some Misc topics, and of course, Snape.

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#65 Post by JJ » 18 Jul 2007, 09:13

Did Harry get his invisibility cloak back at the end of the last book? He seems to have left it in the tower, but there wasn't any mention of the Ministry finding it (though they found the two broomsticks). Silly Ministry.
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#66 Post by Middle » 18 Jul 2007, 09:51

Nunis wrote:Will Dumbledore's portrait play a role in Book 7? How can it help Harry, if at all? JKR has said that portraits are not like ghosts, they can't convey much new information; they "repeat taglines and phrases", but can't really interact with the living in any meaningful way.
If this is the case, then how can the Fat Lady interact at all? And how about that crazed knight in book 2? He was certainly interacting as well, so if she suddenly decided on this, it's a flaw, IMHO...
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#67 Post by TK421 » 18 Jul 2007, 10:05

Middle wrote:
Nunis wrote:Will Dumbledore's portrait play a role in Book 7? How can it help Harry, if at all? JKR has said that portraits are not like ghosts, they can't convey much new information; they "repeat taglines and phrases", but can't really interact with the living in any meaningful way.
If this is the case, then how can the Fat Lady interact at all? And how about that crazed knight in book 2? He was certainly interacting as well, so if she suddenly decided on this, it's a flaw, IMHO...
I was thinking the same thing.

Don't forget the other headmasters seem to be very interactive. When Harry saw Arthur get attacked, two of them actively participated in the search and rescue. Dilys Derwent zipped over to St. Mungo's. Phineas Nigellus goes over to Sirius' house.

The only one who seems to repeat catch phrases, iirc, is Sirius' mother.
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#68 Post by DrG » 19 Jul 2007, 05:07

I can't believe we only have to wait for a matter of hours now!

That Black family tree is really interesting. I think I guessed that the wizarding world would have some degree of inbreeding and the major families would interact in some way. The Black family seems to be linked to every other family mentioned in the books (Potter, Weasley, Malfoy)

I'm working my way through OotP and almost ready to start HBP. Didn't realise that Tonks might be related to Sirius. She mentioned in OotP that one of her parents was Muggle-born.
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#69 Post by Nunis » 19 Jul 2007, 05:23

TK421 wrote:
Middle wrote:
Nunis wrote:Will Dumbledore's portrait play a role in Book 7? How can it help Harry, if at all? JKR has said that portraits are not like ghosts, they can't convey much new information; they "repeat taglines and phrases", but can't really interact with the living in any meaningful way.
If this is the case, then how can the Fat Lady interact at all? And how about that crazed knight in book 2? He was certainly interacting as well, so if she suddenly decided on this, it's a flaw, IMHO...
I was thinking the same thing.

Don't forget the other headmasters seem to be very interactive. When Harry saw Arthur get attacked, two of them actively participated in the search and rescue. Dilys Derwent zipped over to St. Mungo's. Phineas Nigellus goes over to Sirius' house.

The only one who seems to repeat catch phrases, iirc, is Sirius' mother.
You misunderstand me. Portraits, as we have seen and as you mentioned, can interact with people. Talk to them, run errands and what not. But they can not provide any new useful information the person didn't already know before they died. So Dumbledore might be able to say hello to Harry and cheer him on or whatever, but he's not going to be able to give Harry clues or answers.

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#70 Post by Nunis » 19 Jul 2007, 05:25

DrG wrote:Didn't realise that Tonks might be related to Sirius. She mentioned in OotP that one of her parents was Muggle-born.
I don't think anyone saw any of the family tree stuff coming before we read Order. But yeah, Tonks's mother Andromeda was Sirius's first cousin. Andromeda was the sister of Bellatrix (Lestrange) and Narcissa (Malfoy), making Sirius first cousins with them too. Andromeda Black married Muggle Ted Tonks, and had Nymphadora.

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#71 Post by Nunis » 19 Jul 2007, 05:32

Everyone, please read this!

As some of you might have heard, certain bits of the book has leaked online. It's a terrible travesty for every fan of the books, and any true fan should adopt a zero tolerance policy to spoilers until we all get a chance to read the book.

The NY Times has now printed an early, spoiler-filled review of this leaked material, which is amazingly disappointing as well. I will not read it, and I expect none of you to do that either. Or at the very least, to keep all spoilers off FilmWise.

Please, please, please, let's keep FilmWise spoiler free for another 2 days or so. I only have one day and eight hours to wait, and I'd like to be able to do that, knowing I'm safe from any unwanted material. I won't venture outside FilmWise for fear of these spoilers, but I do need to be able to come here. Once the book has been published, feel free to discuss the book in here, but I beg of you: nothing until then. Please don't even post links to the NY Times "review". Respect all fans.

Please. And thank you.

Here is some more material (completely spoiler-free) on the leak.

Muggles Leak "Deathly Hallows" Online, Magical World Resisting

JKR Updates Diary, Asks Fans to Ignore "Deathly Hallows Spoilers"

New York Times Posts Spoilers: Call for Letters

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#72 Post by JJ » 19 Jul 2007, 05:32

Nunis wrote:
TK421 wrote:
Middle wrote:
Nunis wrote:Will Dumbledore's portrait play a role in Book 7? How can it help Harry, if at all? JKR has said that portraits are not like ghosts, they can't convey much new information; they "repeat taglines and phrases", but can't really interact with the living in any meaningful way.
If this is the case, then how can the Fat Lady interact at all? And how about that crazed knight in book 2? He was certainly interacting as well, so if she suddenly decided on this, it's a flaw, IMHO...
I was thinking the same thing.

Don't forget the other headmasters seem to be very interactive. When Harry saw Arthur get attacked, two of them actively participated in the search and rescue. Dilys Derwent zipped over to St. Mungo's. Phineas Nigellus goes over to Sirius' house.

The only one who seems to repeat catch phrases, iirc, is Sirius' mother.
You misunderstand me. Portraits, as we have seen and as you mentioned, can interact with people. Talk to them, run errands and what not. But they can not provide any new useful information the person didn't already know before they died. So Dumbledore might be able to say hello to Harry and cheer him on or whatever, but he's not going to be able to give Harry clues or answers.
Unless Dumbledore still had some information that he hadn't yet given to Harry.

Is there any chance Dumbledore and Harry got to the Horcrux in the cave first? (And then Dumbledore, without Harry noticing, destroyed it and replaced it with a note so that Harry would track down R.A.B. after Dumbledore's death?)
La la la la la.

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#73 Post by Nunis » 19 Jul 2007, 05:34

JJ wrote:Unless Dumbledore still had some information that he hadn't yet given to Harry.
It's possible, of course, but I don't really like it. If Dumbledore is dead, he should stay quiet.
JJ wrote:Is there any chance Dumbledore and Harry got to the Horcrux in the cave first? (And then Dumbledore, without Harry noticing, destroyed it and replaced it with a note so that Harry would track down R.A.B. after Dumbledore's death?)
Again, it's certainly possible, but I don't like that either. That doesn't seem to fit with Dumbledore's character.

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#74 Post by JJ » 19 Jul 2007, 05:39

Nunis wrote:
JJ wrote:Unless Dumbledore still had some information that he hadn't yet given to Harry.
It's possible, of course, but I don't really like it. If Dumbledore is dead, he should stay quiet.
I agree with that. I didn't like the portraits at all.
Nunis wrote:
JJ wrote:Is there any chance Dumbledore and Harry got to the Horcrux in the cave first? (And then Dumbledore, without Harry noticing, destroyed it and replaced it with a note so that Harry would track down R.A.B. after Dumbledore's death?)
Again, it's certainly possible, but I don't like that either. That doesn't seem to fit with Dumbledore's character.
Yeah, I don't think it's likely. But Dumbledore has resorted to trickery in the past to manipulate Potter rather than just tell him the truth. (With the cloak, for instance.)

Question: will Hogwarts be in session this year? And, if so, will Harry attend? (And will Hermione, Ron, Ginny, etc.?)
La la la la la.

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#75 Post by Nunis » 19 Jul 2007, 05:46

JJ wrote:Question: will Hogwarts be in session this year? And, if so, will Harry attend? (And will Hermione, Ron, Ginny, etc.?)
That was another thing I was going to discuss, but no time like the present.

I honestly don't know. I don't see Harry going back as a student, but I also don't really see Hermione missing her N.E.W.T. exams. Ginny, well she probably won't come along on the initial journey to Godric's Hollow, but who knows?

And if Hogwarts stays open, will McGonagall be headmistress? Will parents want their kids to come back? Your guess is as good as mine.

Either way, I think we will definitely see Hogwarts again in some capacity. Maybe Harry will need to go there in the Horcrux hunt... Also, Jo has said that one of the students will go back (in the epilogue) as a professor. Neville teaching Herbology maybe?

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